tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post8648287073175445427..comments2024-01-05T05:46:30.140-08:00Comments on Angie's Desk: Playing with Genre DefinitionsAngiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-22633617423152770332009-01-27T10:11:00.000-08:002009-01-27T10:11:00.000-08:00Heather -- thanks for commenting. :) I'm glad yo...Heather -- thanks for commenting. :) I'm glad you found it helpful.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-22189312729402450802009-01-26T19:02:00.000-08:002009-01-26T19:02:00.000-08:00Very thoughtful breakdown. This is a great resourc...Very thoughtful breakdown. This is a great resource--thanks for the read!Heather Masseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00913459109753829391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-91517388823897680562008-03-24T07:53:00.000-07:002008-03-24T07:53:00.000-07:00TABB -- thanks, I'm glad you're finding it helpful...TABB -- thanks, I'm glad you're finding it helpful. :D<BR/><BR/>I think a thriller is a subset of the suspense story, with an emphasis on action. So it's defined primarily by the emotional effect it has on readers -- the "Ohmigod! Ohmigod! Ohmigod!" effect that suspense has -- but a thriller is more likely to achieve that with more overt action like gun fire, chases, planes about to crash, that sort of thing, rather than a more low-level but intense flavor of "Ohmigod!" that you might get from a story that plays psychological games.<BR/><BR/>So classic Hitchcock would be more suspense, like in <I>Rear Window</I> where you realize along with the protag that the guy across the way has murdered his wife and then realize that the killer knows the protag knows and is going to be coming to silence him. "Ohmigod!" No car chases or races to defuse the bomb or anything like that, and most of the "action" takes place with the guy sitting there in his home spying on his neighbors, but you know what's coming and it gets your pulse going.<BR/><BR/>Whereas a thriller would be more like the opening sequence of <I>Temple of Doom</I> where it's non-stop action, careening from one immediate and deadly peril to the next, with the shoot-out and the crashing plane and the raft ride over the waterfall -- every time you think you can catch your breath, there's another "Ack!"<BR/><BR/>Note, though, that there's a <I>lot</I> of overlap between the various excitement-evoking genres. You can throw "action" in here, where the emotion being evoked is the visceral "Yeah!!!" one gets (well, some people get) from multi-car crashes and huge fireballs and billions of flying bullets -- lots of death and destruction, with the protag striding through it all more or less unscathed, and probably causing more than half of it. :)<BR/><BR/>But there really aren't any hard and firm lines between suspense, thriller and action stories or movies, and one movie can have elements of more than one. You can start out with a low-level suspense feeling, where the reader or viewer knows that danger is coming and gets the "Ohmigod!" feeling from its inevitable approach, even though nothing dangerous is happening just yet. Then segue into thriller-level "Ohmigod!" with more overt and physical dangers, and climax with a huge action scene featuring a high body-count and lots of stuff blowing up.<BR/><BR/>For the sake of genre definition, I see this as a single genre, subdivided by intensity and level of overt action, and by a sliding scale of destruction and mayhem. A psychological thriller might be mostly suspense and anticipation with a relatively low level of overt action in the climactic scene, while an action story (or more likely a movie -- it's doable but more difficult to evoke the same level of spectacle with the written word) might ditch the low-level suspense all together and just go for the huge explosions, chases and gun fights. :)<BR/><BR/>So you've got this spectrum:<BR/><BR/>Suspense ==> Thriller ==> Action<BR/><BR/>and your story can be placed anywhere on that spectrum. Or heck, any given <I>scene</I> from your story might be placed anywhere on that spectrum, although rising action will usually dictate that any shift on the spectrum will genreally tend to be from left to right as the story progresses. You probably <I>could</I> start with the explosions and a motorboat chase and a high body count, and then have the climax of the story be an intense but low-action psychological show-down where the protag and antag are are trying to psych each other out in dialogue, but <I>I</I> wouldn't want to try to make that one work. [wry smile]<BR/><BR/>The main difference I see between the suspense spectrum type story and a mystery is that in suspense, you often know what's coming -- part of the "Ohmigod!" factor is that the reader or viewer and maybe even the characters <I>do</I> know what's coming but can't stop it, or have a very slim chance of stopping it -- whereas in a mystery they <I>don't</I> know what's coming because the definition of a mystery is that there's a puzzle to solve.<BR/><BR/>The two genres blend very easily of course. You can write a mystery where someone's trying to kill the protag and she has to figure out who and why and how to stop them while dodging bullets and assorted death traps. :)<BR/><BR/>From your descriptions it sounds like you've got a couple of blended-genre stories there. What you call them when you submit depends on how you think they'd best be marketed. So if you've got a mystery romance, do you think it'd sell better to mystery fans or romance fans? Or taking a step backwards up the chain, would it sell better to a mystery publisher or a romance publisher? That's pretty much what it comes down to. The other one sounds like a thriller mystery or action mystery -- again, how do you think it would best be marketed? To the thriller/action crowd or to the mystery crowd? Where would it go in the bookstore?<BR/><BR/>The last consideration is really the bottom line, and it can be frustrating for writers to have to conform to that reality of the marketplace. You can come up with some really neato genre blends, but if your resulting mutant child doesn't fit well into any particular section of the bookstore, you'll probably have a hard time selling it to a publisher in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Romantic mysteries or mystery romances are pretty popular, though, as are thriller-mystery blends (<I>Da Vinci Code</I> comes immediately to mind, there) so there's no particular reason why you can't make these particular blends and have them be marketable.<BR/><BR/>Wow, I've read a lot of blog posts that were less than half this long. [duck] Hope there was something helpful in all this verbage. :)<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-77386455283784750622008-03-24T03:50:00.000-07:002008-03-24T03:50:00.000-07:00Hi Angie - this is really helpful. How would you d...Hi Angie - this is really helpful. How would you define a thriller? I'm trying to best classify two stories; one is a crime but a twisted love story at the same time, the other is a mystery by your definition, (adventure, kidnapping, strange keys and the reader doesn't know what for) but I've always associated thrillers with very intense action, and mystery with crime - this is an adventure story with those elements - but that genre doesn't seem to feature any more in adult lit - only in YA? What do you think? (PS going to link you over at my site, there's a lot of great stuff here for reference - thanks!)the Amateur Book Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16235316930103813960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-82023202038796109662007-10-12T17:35:00.000-07:002007-10-12T17:35:00.000-07:00WW -- thanks, glad you liked it. :) About the de...WW -- thanks, glad you liked it. :) About the demon and his problems, that one's going to have to be pretty far down the list. I have a bunch of other things I'm working on right now that are probably going to occupy me well into next year, and that's not even counting taking November for NaNo. It <I>does</I> sound like fun, though, doesn't it? [grin]<BR/><BR/>I never saved any references to the people trying to argue that Magic Realism isn't actually fantasy. I just sort of read/see/hear that sort of thing, eyeroll and go on with whatever. If you mean examples of the genre, though, "Like Water for Chocolate" is a good example, which was a movie as well as a book. "Chocolat" is another, and the movie version has Johnny Depp. :)<BR/><BR/>Basically it's contemporary (or very recent historical -- I don't think a story with a medieval-type setting would qualify as Magic Realism but something from, say, the 1920s might) literary fiction with just a touch of magic which drives the main plot. It has strong characterizations and plotting and layers of meaning like other lit fic, but the key bit of magic makes it fantasy.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-15497633082142224872007-10-12T17:23:00.001-07:002007-10-12T17:23:00.001-07:00BTW, I'd never heard teh term Magical Realism befo...BTW, I'd never heard teh term Magical Realism before, so now I have to check out what the snobbery is about. Do you have specific literary examples?writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-1879131407540672022007-10-12T17:23:00.000-07:002007-10-12T17:23:00.000-07:00I finally had the chance to read this with my full...I finally had the chance to read this with my full attention. Great post. I like the breakdown of what defines various genre. <BR/><BR/>But I especially loved "a mystery writer could come up with a humorous demon who's desperate to figure out who killed Satan's favorite succubus before the Boss gets back from Tahiti." Hah! That would be a great read. When are you writing it?writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-35228747086319507552007-10-11T14:02:00.000-07:002007-10-11T14:02:00.000-07:00SS -- thank you! I'm flattered that you like it e...SS -- thank you! I'm flattered that you like it enough to save. :D<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-9315891672174901082007-10-11T13:35:00.000-07:002007-10-11T13:35:00.000-07:00Wow, great post! Genre definitions drive me crazy....Wow, great post! Genre definitions drive me crazy. I'm going to bookmark this post. Thanks!<BR/><BR/>So true about erotica, too. And being aware of what we're doing, as you say, is probably the most important part of being a writer.Spy Scribblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299551957327543491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-44495420461510891112007-10-09T10:54:00.000-07:002007-10-09T10:54:00.000-07:00Bernita -- you've definitely missed a show, yeah. ...Bernita -- you've definitely missed a show, yeah. [eyeroll] It's kind of entertaining to watch them, but it's also insulting to everyone who does write genre and is willing to admit it. Because of course it <I>is</I> fantasy, just as much as <I>The Handmaid's Tale</I> is science fiction. It's ridiculous, but the writers (editors, publishers, etc.) are trying to distance themselves from their trailer-trash neighbors.<BR/><BR/>Makes me want to throw old tires in their yard or something. :P<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-73331685561251057292007-10-09T06:12:00.000-07:002007-10-09T06:12:00.000-07:00Hee, I obviously have missed those attempts at sec...Hee, I obviously have missed those attempts at secularization.<BR/>Howinhell can it NOT be fantasy, no matter how realistic parts of the story are?Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-38796980700737141952007-10-08T22:17:00.000-07:002007-10-08T22:17:00.000-07:00Charles -- thanks. :) It just seems to make sens...Charles -- thanks. :) It just seems to make sense, and to me at least, being able to keep different elements organized makes it easier to blend genres.<BR/><BR/>Ello -- I'm glad you like it, thanks. :) And Bernita's post was interesting too. [nod] I commented earlier as well but I need to go back and check for later comments.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-65586150851029958652007-10-08T22:00:00.000-07:002007-10-08T22:00:00.000-07:00These are excellent listings of genres! I think it...These are excellent listings of genres! I think it extremely interested because I had a comment on Bernita's post today about the difference between horror and what is considered dark fantasy. <BR/><BR/>Very cool.Ello - Ellen Ohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18311917335471167591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-14605570307327517332007-10-08T21:55:00.000-07:002007-10-08T21:55:00.000-07:00I really like your designations, especially your d...I really like your designations, especially your discussion of horror and erotica as "emotion" defined. I think you've hit it exactly.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-82579562862068363212007-10-08T09:42:00.000-07:002007-10-08T09:42:00.000-07:00Haven't you ever seen an interview or article or s...Haven't you ever seen an interview or article or something where someone connected with (writer, publisher, whatever) Magic Realism is trying to vehemently insist that Magic Realism is <I>not</I> fantasy, absolutely not, completely different! I saw some writer on TV once who became quite incensed at the very suggestion. It's like they're trying to distance themselves from the more lowbrow (as they see it) examples of the genre.<BR/><BR/>I have no problem with the genre -- what I've seen of it I like. It's just that I tend to get eyerolly when someone who's clearly writing genre fiction tries to insist that they're not. Or when someone else insists for them -- I have no idea what Margaret Atwood thinks of science fiction, for example, but I've seen people absolutely insist that she's never written any. Makes me want to rub oatmeal in their hair or something, just for being idiots.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1847902007209931042.post-64896093324148161382007-10-08T02:35:00.000-07:002007-10-08T02:35:00.000-07:00"(Magic Realism is fantasy with its nose in the ai..."(Magic Realism is fantasy with its nose in the air;..."<BR/><BR/>Huh?Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.com